Forum for Understanding: Science (Discussion about medicine and culture)




НазваниеForum for Understanding: Science (Discussion about medicine and culture)
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<&_> Forum for Understanding: Science (Discussion about medicine and culture)

<$A> = Goro Kamau

<$B> = Dr Gikenye

<$C> = John Musalia



<$A> I am Goro Kamau Welcome Well to begin with I would like to ask Dr Gikenye to tell us something in brief what <./>ma medicine is all about

<$B> Thank you very much Medicine is an aspect in life that deals with those areas that are concerned with the health delivery to the community Now this service is provided by various types of persons who were trained in their own right In this instance I have in mind doctors nurses uh pathologists and many more others

<$C> Okay uh to talking about medicine well you are you've defined medicine but you focused more on the on the modern doctor Well could you please tell us something about uh our <-/>our traditional the traditional basis of modern medicine

<$B> Well I really am not anywhere near an expert in traditional medicine and I think I would not be doing the traditional <./>med uh medical man medicine man a service but uh suffice it to say that there is a difference between the delivery of health care by the medical by the modern medical man and by the traditional man traditional medicine man uh now the traditional medicine man did his training by apprentice He learned from his predecessor and so forth The <-/>the modern doctor if I want to talk about the modern doctor has to learn his trade formally through a medical school and he is not able to offer services in isolation All these other cadres the nurses the radiologists etcetera have to help the modern doctor to offer his services So where else the traditional medicine man could offer services alone uh the modern doctor cannot do that in isolation and he has to get services from other trained cadres

<$A> Yeah it's uh interesting to know uh what medicine is Now I'm just wondering is there something maybe the modern uh doctor <&/>part missing end of tape

<$B> doctor uh has over a period of time evolved his way of treating maybe by herbs roots etcetera Now there are hardly any roots or herbs being used in modern medicine But over the centuries a few of the active ingredients have been identified which were in plants and are already being used in modern medicine in modern possible modern tablet form etcetera In that way maybe you can say he has borrowed But in terms of scientific analysis uh there is quite a lot of difference between the traditional medicine man and the modern doctor

<$A> Okay Doctor uh talking about traditional medicine and modern medicine well I do not want to go back to <-/>to that but uh there's this question of culture and uh we found that uh in most cases modern disciplines or even when you talk about development in any other way field you find that uh you can't really operate without uh taking into consideration the <-/>the cultural environment I do not know how maybe you should tell us this how modern medicine operates in a situation where it's a <-/>a relative newcomer

<$B> Thank you very much Now modern medicine has you could say has a few disadvantages and I'm <./>su and uh you might not be aware that modern doctors also try to study uh what we would call medical sociology in which case they try to understand the community in which they operate They try to know the background of the individuals they treat Now it's quite it's quite uh uh possible sometimes that the modern doctor will go against some cultural beliefs without his knowing now something the <-/>the traditional doctors would not have done But as <-/>as I said before the modern doctor tries as much as possible to understand the community in which he operates in which he treats and even further to try and understand the background of the individual he's treating Now that way he is able not to uh to annoy or to fail because of cultural <-/>cultural misunderstanding

<$C> uh it's interesting uh that particular cultural dimension but I'm just wondering of course there are some cultures which uh some people have grown through and what they see is that uh they stick on them so much But some of this cultural beliefs might be detrimental to the health of the of the person For example somebody could be suffering from an ailment an ailment which is curable by modern medicine and this person refuses or would like to go against the advice of the modern doctor Now in such a case if it is a life-threatening ailment you as a doctor what is your responsibility Do you just leave the person to die I mean because of his cultural beliefs

<$B> Well of course there are very there are very uh some there are very difficult situations sometimes where the individual holds so dearly to his cultural beliefs that go against the practice of modern medicine but that in itself should not be a deterrent by the modern doctor to try and understand and convince the individual Now talking about culture it's as if it's with assumption that the modern cultures if you want to call them so modern cultures are themselves without any detrimental mental effect to health of an individual which is not true So each culture has its own detrimental effects to the health of an individual uh whether it's modern of the so-called modern cultures or Western cultures and <-/>and the traditional <./>me traditional cultures too have their own detrimental effects onto the modern medicine So none of the cultures you would say is without fault looking at it from a medical point of view

<$A> Well now in that situation as a doctor how do you synthesise these two cultures Because especially for <-/>for a doctor who is a an African and who is uh himself uh kind of stems from these contradicting cultures Well as an African culture you have the traditional culture to an extent and of course the whole education system you have imbibed the modern culture so these kinds of conflicts you also experience them I should suppose even at the personal level So how do you kind of strike this <-/>this balance

<$B> Well thank you very much <./>For Fortunately if I'd put it this way Fortunately no culture is static And over time you find people gradually accept things they would not or their grandparents would not have accepted uh since cultures are evolving in their nature you find that the doctor has to face these difficulties that's for sure and some of them some of the <./>diffic how you overcome some of the difficulties is more by the experience You cannot even when you talk about African cultures you find that the practice some of the practice you find in say Kenya or in parts of Kenya are totally different in another part of Kenya in the same Now of course that is multiplied many times over if you're talking about <./>Af the whole of Africa so if you are transplanted from Kenya say to Lesotho I have not been there it's possible that the difficulties that you meet would be totally different and you have over time to gradually align yourself to the new uh difficulties and find new solutions

<$C> uh maybe uh something that's also very much related to culture is uh religion or religious beliefs I don't know how you would uh deal with somebody who uh is a religious fanatic who believes that uh for example maybe it's just prayer that uh will bring about uh the healing of that particularly ailment I don't know how you would comment on that

<$B> Well it's I must admit it's a very difficult question Now it's difficult because if for instance the individual has an illness that is communicable that can transmit from one individual to the other then I think that individual by law should seek treatment Now if on the other hand it's an illness that is not communicable now you find that you're kind of walking a tight rope uh whether to force the individual to take to seek medical attention or otherwise Now of course there are many religious situations one that comes to mind is Jehovah's' Witness Now the individuals in that faith believe that it's wrong to take blood either by mouth or by vein Now when an individual like that comes and tells you Doctor please don't give me blood it does not matter whether I die or I don't Now I think it's all proper to respect the wishes of that individual and find alternatives if there are any I don't know of many alternatives where blood is concerned but you must find alternatives and you must respect the wishes of that individual and not give him blood if so if he so desires

<$C> uh maybe just to add on that You see here are the prime uh the prime uh reason uh of a doctor I mean the prime uh what a doctor is trained in is actually preservation of life and I would not really uh I'm not really I'm wondering if uh by leaving that particular person I mean his wishes to prevail and those wishes uh are <-/>are life-threatening for example if you the wishes are granted uh the person will of course die Now you as a doctor I mean how <-/>how do you come

<$B> Well I let me let me come in here

<$A> Yes

<$B> Yes I don't think it's a question of leaving the individual to die Like I said it is it is uh not necessarily that the individual will die It's possible that he'll survive but have the illness prolonged

<$A> Which of course will eventually lead him to

<$B> maybe

<$A> his death

<$B> Now but that's not all I must first correct by saying that a doctor although trained to save lives that's not all There are some patients that doctors will not be able to treat There are some patients who will be <-/>be far gone Now if you if your illness is so such a in such a state that you cannot be treated you cannot be cured of the illness now does that mean the doctor has no role No of course not The doctor has a role to make that individual comfortable to end to the end So it not <&/>coughing excuse me it's not just that a doctor must or is trained only to preserve or to <./>con uh life No he is also trained to make life a little more comfortable And in actual fact maybe more than anything else every doctor should be able to try and make life comfortable for his patients So that's not all the prolongation of life is not all Now let me give you an example and this calls for uh other arguments When a person or an individual is so ill that he has got actual brain damage uh to a point where you could actually say he has got brain death and he is being supported on machines now how long do you want to prolong that life You could possibly theoretically prolong it for a long long time Now does one want to preserve that kind of life That is not seeing that is not thinking that is actually not essentially perceiving anything and is not appreciating anything So it's difficult and <-/>and you cannot quite say that doctors are only trained uh to preserve life Now that is one The other one is like we previously discussed about cultures a doctor has also to practise medicine to individuals who have their own cultural background who have their own beliefs and personally I believe that uh an individual is not just a body is not just a life One has one has <-/>has his spiritual beliefs and I think they are part of him as much as the physical life we as we know it Thank you

<$A> Thank you doctor but uh I think the question that uh I would like to maybe deduce from the discussion is uh the question of <-/>of authority vis-a-vis the <-/>the patient Well the doctor's authority over the <-/>the patient if any because like uh my colleague here is saying sometimes it's like the doctor in trying to accommodate the <-/>the wishes of the patient Well does he compromise maybe his uh professional obligation and then of course there is also the question of uh does the doctor have the authority to <-/>to <-/>to demand of a patient or somebody who is ill to <-/>to seek attention from <-/>from uh <-/>from a doctor

<$B> Well we talk about authority of the doctor over the patient or vice versa Now let's <-/>let's first deal with that I don't think we can talk about authority of one individual over the other It is the patient or the person who perceives himself to be unwell who seeks the attention the medical attention that is offered by the doctor Now what it means is that you could have a broken leg and you could choose not to get medical attention and you cannot essentially you really haven't broken any law and therefore the doctor has no mandate over whether your leg must be it is your leg after all whether your leg must be treated or otherwise But there are situations where you have a communicable disease one is suffering from a communicable disease and I think it's quite possible to get even legal authority to have that individual with a communicable disease and there are some communicable notifiable disease that you have to seek legal authority that the individual gets treated 'Cause if he doesn't get treated he becomes a problem to other individuals to other people He could quite easily transmit the same uh illness to other people

<$A> Well just on that I <-/>I well if it comes to such a situation do <-/>do we have in our medical infrastructure the mechanisms which would enable our doctors to <-/>to follow up if uh or to suspect in the first place to detect that somebody has that disease and to follow it up

<$B> Yes well uh the <-/>the answer to that is uh yes Uh do we have mechanism Now the mechanisms are essentially legal Uh a patient might go to seek medical advice He has symptoms What he doesn't know is that he has a some notifiable communicable disease Now what it means is that as the doctor you'll pick the symptoms you'll pick the symptoms and you actually can tell the individual yes you're suffering from this or <-/>or you have this problem and it must be treated Now if the <./>indi individual should say no then you can seek uh legal redress in instances where this must be done

<$C> Uh I'm just wondering in such a case you see maybe a patient comes to you He has that communicable disease uh you notice as a doctor a person trained in that particular field that this is the disease this person is suffering from I'm wondering because there are some diseases which take a little bit of a long time before it heals I mean after the time of medication I'm wondering to be able to curtail the movements of this person I mean now that you don't want it to be communicated to the other persons do you need to quarantine the guy or you let him walk away <&/>laughing

<$B> Yes there are there are situations and I think you'd be granted that legally if you did ask for it where you could quarantine an individual But I think uh these are not that common instances where you would have to quarantine a person they are not common And there are all types of forms of quarantine where you treat patients with some communicable diseases in <./>sta such institutions And this makes it easier 'cause if they are in the same institution it is unlikely one will transmit the same disease to the other So that is a form of quarantine but I still think one can still seek uh legal redress and have a <-/>a an individual under quarantine for certain illnesses

<$C> All right that uh maybe is interesting especially when you come uh uh when you look at the diseases that are not treatable uh uh with the modern medicine or even traditional medicine I'm wondering and if this disease is communicable how do you go about it

<$B> Yes uh if I got your question that if it's a disease that's not treatable by the <./>medi by modern medicine or by whatever means and you have an individual who is who is uh who is suffering from the same Now of course there are situations one of them is the present uh illness that we all know about AIDS Now you cannot quarantine all Aids sufferers In actual fact what they need the AIDS sufferers what they need is a lot is some comfort is some care They need to be counselled so that they are not so that they do not transmit <./>an the disease to others who are still healthy Now this not only does this apply to the actual patients where symptoms are obvious but also to carriers of the dreaded virus Thank you

<$A> Okay well that uh well the question I would like to raise now is uh the relation to in relation to ethics medical ethics and uh well the because you see now if you have like you said the case of a of a person who is well terminally ill and you <-/>you want to make him comfortable to the end Well supposing that this person should ask you to discontinue the machines do you as a doctor go on and respect his wishes Or are you bound by some ethics

<$B> Thank you

<$A> And uh well sorry

<$B> The machines I talked about earlier isn't a machine of a person who is able to speak or able to communicate or even able to perceive We are talking about machines where only so-called peripheral organs other than the brain are alive It is almost like you have an organ culture it's like you have live kidneys and you have live intestines and you have live muscles but you don't have a live brain Now if you have a terminally ill patient by terminally I mean you feel that he will not he possibly could not recover from the illness he has and you have that patient ask you to terminate his life you are you are under no obligation to do that one and two in actual fact you must not you must not terminate that life What you're supposed to do is make his life the patient's life comfortable If it's pain uh give him enough painkillers that he has as little pain as possible Organise about his nursing so that at least he has some people to take care of him But as far as terminating life is concerned I don't think there is any single medical organisation that would approve

<$C> That brings us to uh this issue You know there are some people who are mischievous I mean uh possibly they are relatives of that person who is terminally ill say those that person who has the his or her peripheral uh I mean the brain is the one which is still maybe working but the other parts are dead Now there is always a temptation on the part of the uh of the relatives I mean to stop that life uh uh in this case uh in this case of that particular patient you see it might be out of pity or out of cost hospital cost for example and then there could be a mischievous relative who'd uh just go on and put off the <-/>the machine In such an instance I am wondering uh what you as a doctor uh would do

<$B> Well Some of these issues actually go beyond the doctor as an individual and they involve the community and they involve the legal circles etcetera And I am sure over the <-/>the last couple of years you must have read several cases but notably in the US where individuals have been on machines and the relatives have applied to courts of law and their application is Please tell the doctors that ours our relative is as good as dead and can they please discontinue the machines so that our relative can finally go in peace he can have he or she can have respectable you could say respectable death So like I said it's not just the doctor's decision and some of these questions are a lot more complicated than one might want to believe

<$A> On that note listener we come to the end of this week's edition of Forum for Understanding in which we are discussing medicine as a <./>com as a service to community With us in the studio were John Musalia G Gikenye I am Goro Kamau and on behalf of the programme's producer George Okode Bye




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<$A> we call them street children And what do you have to say about this

<$B> Okay you see these are not only street children They're the most neglected in the community Why should they be neglected why

<$A> This uh this is an issue uh a parent can be single yeah Maybe a mother gives a child birth to a child out of wedlock This is a case that can arise where the mother can throw this kid away maybe through abortion where this kid is eventually brought up in that kind of rubbish way whereby the kid just walks around the streets

<$C> But the rubbish what do you mean You know that <-/>that they actually live near the rubbish heaps That's where they learn how to />

<$B> That's not the issue The issue is why should we live in such good homes and why should they live in such in the streets why

<$A> I think the problem here is society particularly if <-/>if a child is brought up in uh a well-off family where the uh <-/>the parents can take care of the child Why should this child end up in the slums in the streets

<$C> No I <-/>I think it’s because I think you know some parents they don't have money Others you know <./>oth other people The these children are usually get thrown maybe because <-_>maybe because<-/> they <-/>they <-/>they don't have any money okay their parents didn't have any money to take care of those children That's the main reason

<$B> So are you trying to say it's <-/>it's 'cause of family planning that some children are there out in the streets

<$C> Yeah it's because of that

<$B> These years there's a family which can have maybe twenty children ten boys and ten girls <&/>laughing

<$C> Excuse me where is the lady that can have ten girls

<$B> Yeah it's possible Maybe uh uh a man has three wives yeah each of those wives has four children

<$C> Yeah it’s

<$B> She can come to and you end up by ten So you find these children in the streets So what has this what role does the government has towards those children Because it's the responsibility of the government to take care of those children

<$A> I don't think it's the government only I think it's society too that is to blame

<$C> No there it's you know I think it's okay it's the society to <-/>to some extent But you know the government also should look for uh uh a home for these children

<$A> But you see there are various homes in the city uh nursing homes are there Children's homes are there Mama Ngina children's home Don't <./>do <-/>don't you think it's also not possible because there are so many thousands and thousands of street children If this won’t help

<$B> But see the point still stands if society <-_>if society <-/> paid enough taxes to facilitate such homes I think then there would be no kid in the streets What do you have to say about that one

<$C> I think Austin is right because the society also here is to blame The <-/>the people who throw out these children if they're found I think they should be dealt with

<$B> How about maybe chasing these <-/>these street children there back to school or away from the streets What <-/>what could

<$C> I think chasing them away from the streets would work It would really do some good The police should be put on the streets 'cause these children are a <-/>a real problem

<$B> But when you chase them off the streets where do they go

<$C> That is Okay if they are chased from the street they just have to go to they have they'll be disturbing people in essence So I think what should be done is the police should be put everywhere So if those children start running everywhere they should be stopped

<$B> So in other words you're saying it's the children to blame

<$C> No it's not the children to blame uh

<$A> Don’t think also if you also chase away these kids from the streets then this problem of crime drug abuse and whatever what-have-you

<$B> My friend this problem’s already there What are you trying to say

<$C> Yeah <&/>laughing

<$A> No I'm trying to say yeah if just someone okay I'm a street child yeah they thrust me out into the street I eat there out of those dustbins and I even sleep there When I'm just away from that street I'll go to maybe a village somewhere or I’ll rest somewhere I start maybe uh stealing things from there I steal the food I do all that Okay imagine I'm only one What about the numbers that will be chased away from the street

<$B> But don't you think this still happens until today whether they're chased or not They simply going to steal Yes

<$C> They there there's still a lot of crime and they’ve been pickpocketing people and so the crime rate will still be there But I'm just telling you that it's a good way to keep them out of the streets At least they should be taken to a home somewhere or at least they should just be kept off because the streets are certainly not a good place

<$B> But you see every start has to have its end If you throw them out of the streets where do they go Where do you put them Do you have a place where you're going to keep them while you're throwing them out you see what happens

<$B> Yeah there should <-_>there should<-/> be some organisation which <-/>which can <-_>which can<-/> provide a home for these children

<$B> So mainly it's the government which has still to <-/>to provide this organisation

<$C> Right yeah

<$B> Okay

<$A> Don't you think there are organisations even up to now and they

<$C> But there are not enough that's what I'm trying to tell you <&/>laughing

<$A> Okay I know there are not enough okay I understand there are not enough But even if you brought up hundreds and even if the world bank came around to assist in this project

<$C> uh

<$A> it would not still work

<$C> why

<$A> It's that parent who is supposed to control the child

<$C> no it’s not

<$A> and it's that teacher at school who is supposed to educate the <-/>the children about family planning

<$C> I don't think so because you can't just talk like that You know this problem is not exactly <+a> family planning problem Some people they <-/>they get okay they get children out of wedlock and they're forced others maybe they're forced to throw those children It's not 'cause of family planning only

<$A> But it's

<$B> In that case it’s still family planning You're getting those children who you <&/>all talking

<$A> whom <&/>all talking

<$C> Okay you don't have to raise your voice when we're just talking <&/>laughing

<$B> Okay It's okay fine

<$A> Now uh uh only let's address ourselves to the legal part of it Why don't we establish laws which govern these uh the retrieval and maybe punishment of these street children because some of these children are under eighteen and you’ll find that when they're taken to court just allow them to go or take them to juvenile prisons which I think is not helping much

<$C> I think the <-/>the law is not the case The law is there But you see these children they cannot There is nothing else they can do because it's not their fault

<$B> Yeah

<$A> That one we know

<$C> The children if they're being taken to court I think it's help they're helped I mean if they're arrested the ones who are arrested Because there are some children they're going uh uh Those are kids uh uh uh It was in the papers There was a car passing okay

<$A/<$B> Yes

<$C> And then there are these five children They looked as if they were about fifteen years old

<$A/<$B> Yes

<$C> They came and tried to move There was <-_>There was<-/> traffic so this car had stopped It was a newish car it was quite new So now these children tried removing the <-/>the wheelcaps from the car and the car was moving Don't you think that's dangerous for even the children

<$A> What

<$C> Then

<$A> What I strongly think is it's not only the children I think it’s the coins that that society gives them and which influences them to buy drugs They smoke glue and

<$C> Yeah I think that's right

<$A> all the bad things that distorts their thinking ability What do you think about that Bwana

<$B> Me I me I feel if we are responsible citizens yeah the best thing is to do if you're aware of just pick this child and try to see if you can guide and even

<$C> excuse me

<$B> and even maybe give <-/>give that child some advice

<$C> Excuse me Bwana it's not <./>eas <./>diff easy for people to come and pick children from the streets because those people also have their families You can't talk like that I think what you should be talking about right now is trying to form some organisations to help these children

<$B> But who is supposed to form these organisations

<$C> The government

<$B> not

<$C> No

<$B> Okay the government made out of the people is not a government So it's the person who’s supposed to be dealing with the problem

<$C> Because <-/>because you know people cannot people You know everyone is also looking for money No one can start saying people should go there and should pick children from the streets to take them home Now how many folk can afford to do that Can you go and take a child from the street and

<$B> Okay let me give you a case in question If you come across a very good young girl in the streets picking that bread that uh fermented bread to eat So you feel mercy for this child

<$C> You mean the rotten bread

<$B> Yeah you feel mercy for this child You <-/>you don't you think you'll have some kind of kindness in you to pick this child and take it to your home maybe <-/>maybe even the chief's camp and try to assist this child You won't do that

<$C> What do you mean I won't do that

<$B> You cannot be able to do that I'm asking you a question

<$C> But uh I've not said that I cannot do that But what do you think about that uh Bwana

<$A> No what I think is you're being very busy Do you know what happens is when once <-/>once you take these kids to the like the chief's camp What can the chief do with them

<$C> <&/>laughing

<$B> The chief has a responsibility to <-_assists><+_assist> the whole locality

<$C> uh can I please interrupt You know what the chiefs here in <./>Nai in fact I don't think there are any chiefs here in Nairobi

<$B> There are There's a chief in Kasaranie

<$A> There's a chief here in Kasaranie Or here opposite for example

<$C> Okay yes but the chiefs I'm sorry to say the chiefs are very busy with other things They cannot start helping those children Then

<$A> Yeah I strongly agree with all this

<$C> Then the money that those children are given by the society the people you think should help them That money it's not enough to do anything They simply take that money and go and buy rubber the rubber that they start sniffling

<$A> You mean the glue

<$C> the glue

<$B> You see I'm <-/>I’m not suggesting that these kids are supposed be given money These kids are supposed to be brought up in a responsible way

<$A> But by <-/>by who

<$C> By who the government

<$B> It's the chief and the uh the chief represents the government and the top yeah

<$C> But the chief cannot do much

<$A> Yeah you cannot expect the chief to remove money from his own pocket

<$C> From his own pocket that's what I'm telling you

<$B> Okay for example it's like maybe a relief fund yeah Maybe in Kitui So do you expect that chief in Kitui not to be uh knowledgeable about his people

<$C> Excuse me Bwana you're going around the question

<$B> Yeah

<$A> You Before you said that you bring the children from the streets

<$B> Yes

<$C> To the chief The chief cannot remove money from his pocket What can the chief do

<$A> What can the chief do with these children

<$B> Okay the idea is we're going to decentralise this problem



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<&_><$A> Dr Justice Mboye (Kenyatta University)

<$B> Prof Odera Oruka (University of Nairobi)

<$C> Mr Joseph Makhoha (University of Nairobi)

<$D> Mr Maritim

<$E> Mr Michael Mngwala (Weekly Review)



<$A> and it has not <-_>it has not<-/> been expounded probably by uh <./>wh people who talk about African socialism but I don't think Africans most Africans understand what actually somebody means by African socialism

<$B> <-/>mhm

<$A> Do we have

<$B> You see many people tend to think that uh it is that many of the ideas used in Africa socially politically are borrowed ideas There is a really bit of truth of that but not the whole truth You see some of the <-_thing><+_things> you are saying are borrowed ideas things like democracy <-_thing><+_things> like this are not necessarily borrowed Maybe you are using the Greek term that's right but the <-/>the practice itself is human

<$?> <&/>laughter

<$B> And to say that therefore they're foreign is that that is academic imperialism you see

<$C> But professor

<$B> Now uh yah

<$C> Professor uh uh uh I <-/>I still want to probe the African focus I still want to find that this conference is going to be there and will be utilised to the full by the African thinkers And again I still want to fall back to the unfortunate fact that Africa at the moment is marginalized What <-/>what are some of <./>wha what is it we expect to get out of this conference in terms of thematic interests

<$B> <-/>mhm

<$C> Yah <./>wha <./>wha what themes are we addressing that will bring Africans not only as a problematic continent but as a continent that has got a future a continent that has got a past

<$B> When you say that Africa is being marginalized I don't agree with that wholly but maybe Africa is being marginalized economically We can say a lot later but I don't think that Africa is marginalized politically Africa is still a very important force politically in the world Ah I don't think that Africa is being marginalized intellectually if we take ourselves seriously Africa is still a force academically and there is lot of potential we have However certain things are happening for example some of the African academic intellectuals may be leaving their own country to go and live outside

<$?> <-/>mhm

<$B> But that is because of economic <-_reason><+_reasons> perhaps But uh in terms of ideas in terms of scholarship I don't think that we should reconcile ourselves to saying that we are marginalized and that we should wait for lead from abroad

<$?> But I think

<$?> let me see uh <&/>clears throat

<$?> I would tend to uh have a <-/>a different uh uh understanding of that uh especially in the sense that the kind of uh technology that we are trying to uh uh <-/>to copy or even to harness for our own development has been developed on a philosophy that was developed uh outside of uh Africa and therefore even when we are saying that uh we have lots of uh intellectuals that have uh that are homegrown and that could actually in fact uh turn around uh the <-/>the uh <-/>the <-/>the events and the situations in Africa so that we can catch up are we not really jumping onto the bandwagon too long uh uh long after the engine is has gone uh

<$?> uh

<$?> Is that really possible for us to say we'll march on to this philosophy

<$?> uh

<$?> and hope maybe to better the uh <-/>the situation of the African

<$B> Yes yes this is fact is the right time because uh I think that the philosophies of the west of the <-/>the so called developed countries are collapsing I think that Marxism is being seen to be collapsing isn't it And I <./>tha <./>tha that is hiding another fact
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