Forum for Understanding: Science (Discussion about medicine and culture)




НазваниеForum for Understanding: Science (Discussion about medicine and culture)
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<&/>various voices simultaneously

<$A> Here is this religious idea that when he has shot you in the leg

<$C> Exactly

<$A> and you capture them don't bayonet them

<$C> It's extremely difficult to train soldiers to kill and then tell them be kind with your enemy This teaching has to be given by officers This teaching is not a question of free will It has to be integrated into the chain of command It is a question of order and discipline for the soldier to respect those rules because those rules are laws and those laws are accepted by the states And so the states in deciding to accept those treaties accept also to implement it <&/>grammar to the last of the soldiers So this is why we have all the system of implementing measures down the chain of command that gives us the result for a soldier that does not respect those rules facing a tribunal facing military justice for having committed a war crime

<$D> These don't sound like the wars that I see in Africa ...


<$C> Even last century the picture were not so <-/>so nice as it might seem Gentleman-war is maybe more a theory than something we have faced in the past in practice I agree with you that reality in the field does not always correspond to the the facts to the international treaties which still have a good long way to go Now these international treaties have been created and accepted by states ICRC is just the promoter We have on the one side the law It has to be implemented Sometimes it is but when it is implemented correctly nobody says a word about it On the other hand it's that we have a lot of violations in the field ICRC starts to be very vocal because we cannot continue to accept those very evident violations But the international community starts also to realize that we have to impose with more I would say forceful means to respect those international treaties So maybe let's go back in twenty years to see the progress

<$A> Robert you said earlier that uh the <-/>the military related problems that Africa encounters today are the result of the absurd socio-economic policies forced on us What are these

<$D> Models of economic and political and social development which don't match states which are just devolving into states models uh of Western Europe and North America


<$A> Models like what

<$D> Economic models uh to produce uh gross amounts huge amounts of money from uh cash crops and ...


<$A> Is there no way counting on the experience gained elsewhere that they can leapfrog some of these many years you're talking about

<$D> Nobody knows The the actual path of development ...


<$A> What's <-/>what's special about Malaysia

<$D> Malaysia is intermediate in terms of development ... Uh the Malaysians are solving these problems in a totally different way in a Malaysian way


<$A> That's where the pressure comes in You have the donor saying do it this way do it this way <-_>this way<-/> And Philip is saying if the pressure was eased off a little Africa might be able to evolve her own ways of resolving these problems

<$D> Certainly it will It is doing but it's being impeded

<$B> Africa's problems emanate largely from external factors The dependence on the international economic system is at the root of the <./>econ economic crisis in Africa You can talk of Japan being able to evolve a domestic economy while Africa not being able to Even if you <-/>you look at the political crisis in Africa you might blame the low level political development the outmoded cultures and all the rest But if you take the military dictators in Africa for instance who has been keeping them in uh power For instance is it is <-_>it is<-/> the external power If if US and France today decided that Mobutu has to continue staying in Zaire he will I strongly believe that if that pressure can be eased off on us <&/>prep then we can be able to solve our internal problems and move forward We are saying that we need to have an environment where we have domestic indigenous policies able to use to absorb foreign aid

<$D> But you did agree..

<$B> and turn that foreign aid to <-/>to serve the African economies

<$D> But you did say ...

<$B> What I believe is that uh conflict or war need not necessarily impede development because we've seen it in other countries which <-/>which have really developed too when there are conflicts

<$A> Who is supplying all these arms to African countries

<$B> It is the Western countries right now and then the Eastern Soviet block countries during the Cold War which were actually supplying Africa with <-/>with military equipment for different reasons One the military industries in these countries needed to grow and to be sustained Therefore these countries had to find a market in Africa They are the people who are creating conditions in Africa which can be conducive to Africa importing their arms For instance they tell us that they tell Kenya that look here Uganda is your enemy And they <-/>they build up this animosity so that later on Kenya can import arms

<$A> In order to sell their arms they become salesmen of uh hatred well more or less

<$B> Yes

<$D> I'm not sure that we can go as far as to say...

<$A> Yeah but if the opportunity arose they would do it

<$D> I <-/>I don't think they need to...

<$A> Statistics on that subject are difficult to find

<$B> Yes

<$A> but I think the major manufacturers of the munitions in the world are known and I think it's clearly known I mean once you've gotten the munitions in the country it's easy to see this is Russian made this is American made this is German

<$D> Exactly every country that has a manufacturing capacity...made to pay for it or

<$A> made to take a loan for it

<$D> yes

<$A> Bishop Desmond Tutu says when we become democratised we will not require the enemy this much and in any case they ought to be used for other purposes at the moment building bridges constructing jobs Do you share that belief

<$D> The biggest spender on arms ...

<$B> The military sector of a country is basically aimed at defending the borders of the country Developed countries like US France and all the rest the militaries are first and foremost there to defend borders In Africa the military has been used actually internally to even suppress the <./>de democratic process because the governments don't feel legitimate Now under a democratic environment this government will be very legitimate A head of state will feel very secure because he's

<$A> because the people love him

<$B> therefore he will not need the army to control these people

<$A> He will not need to rule by force The hope is that most if not all African leaders will create conditions that will allow their armies to start in the words of the Bible to beat their swords into plowshares to produce more food Good night




S1BDIS2K

<&_><$A> Wachira Kigotho The Standard

<$B> Wamayiu Muhia Daily Nation

<$C> Orata, Dr Duke

<$D> Professor David Ndetei



<$B> So are you not confusing issues

<$A> Maybe Dr Orata

<$C> You have said correct me that there is a duplication in our house that is true but you must realise one thing that there is no provision in the university for the registration of a trade union That is one thing which the public also has got to understand that there is no provision for the registration of a trade union in the University of Nairobi or any other

<$A> for academic staff or for anybody else

<$C> for academic staff and those on the academic scale

<$B> Does that preclude them from registering

<$C> Let me finish let me finish first Now you've raised a very uh pertinent question in that you are trying to really ask why do why were we registered in the first place and these people are also fighting for the same thing So that trade union business comes in The second issue that the association cannot negotiate for salaries the second issue that the association cannot negotiate for salaries I find that<-/> that uh <-/>that uh <-/>that statement a little bit amorphous in the sense that take for example the management in a company They do have their salaries reviewed that is agreed isn't it and the management members are not <-/unionisable> members in a company So who provokes the adjustment of their salaries So what we are saying is that it doesn't matter whether you are dealing with a union or what there must be a mutual agreement If the employer and the association agree to negotiate yes to negotiate the terms and services If there is a mutual agreement in other words for example in this particular case there’s a mutual understanding based on the university acts that the council recognises the Staff Association as association representing members of the academic staff so it can get and talk with these people and talk in terms of salaries So that business of uh it’s only the union who can negotiate for a salary it is in general true but there are actually exceptions to that which is the salary structure I've given you for companies and so forth

<$B> Professor Ndetei you have quoted that uh you <-/>you seem to value the academic uh freedom more than you <-/>you value democratic rights But uh in our constitution the National Constitution states uh clearly that uh all <-/>all both of them are guaranteed in our <./>constit are guaranteed there and any other statute like the one we are quoting the university act nineteen eighty-five or any other of universities is secondary to the I mean to the constitution Now what the uh members of the union are saying or seem to be saying is that they <-/>they have certain rights which need to be there And this is the reason why we <-/>we finally assume there is <-_>there is<-/> a power struggle in <-/>in the university with the problem of registering having the two Is there any problem of having the union and the Association

<$D> Listen Freedom of association is provided for and that's why we have formed this association And that association must be within the provision of the law When you talk about association freedom of <./>ass <-/>freedom of association <-/>association freedom to do what That must be subject to the freedoms of other people You cannot form an association of the uh <-/>of thugs because you agree you got a common trade I'm not calling anybody thugs please don't get me wrong uh or an association of people to smuggle smugglers uh just because you have the same trade okay You cannot do that It’s an association to do what That's what's the matter what That's what matters But if is an association to express freely ideas and to associate freely who is telling them that association

<$B> In essence

<$D> But then when you Please just go and look at the union the objective of the unions of a union and then we can start from there That objective of taking over private universities

<$A> And can we

<$D> Go and look at the union so that when we talk we talk about things that are objective That is one of the <-_objective><+_objectives> really Somebody who has invested so much the Catholic University the United States University which is the here the University Baraton University private property and somebody wants to takes over that

<$C> I've read uh <-_>I've read<-/> uh those rules and I‘ve never not seen that clause saying that the union wants to take over All they have said is that they want to members from all the universities both public and private but now let's bring it back to the basics Now the union has said that if it can co-exist with you because you are an association and you don't have the clout to negotiate for salaries Are you prepared to co-exist with it

<$D> Okay now first of all uh before we answer whether we have the clout or not there is something which you need to get cleared and the public also needs to understand that An interpretation of the constitution of WASU they say that they will take charge of Kenyatta University and its constituent colleges Moi University and its constituent colleges Nairobi University and its constituent colleges and Egerton University and its constituent colleges private and religious universities and any university formed later on in this country

<$A> I think the <-/>the issue here is that uh since you are registered how what are your <./>member membership at the moment

<$D> Well so far we are uh busy recruiting members Uh we have a base membership of about really five fifty officially uh

<$A> How many

<$D> fifty people who’ve really registered officially but we are still uh <-_>we are<-/> still selling the Academic Association amongst members of the academic staff We have not given a deadline as to when you can register or not so that we would really say this is not it all But shortly we are going to start taking a count stock of how many people we have as members

<$A> Does <-/>does it mean that uh these the members are not I mean the <-/>the university lecturers and the senior academic staff are not enthusiastic in joining this organisation because when I There used to be uh <-/>be the <-/>the register for WASU it had about a lot of members say five hundred six hundred members and now you <-/>you are saying that you <-/>you have only fifty Is it not <-_>is it<-/> <-_>is it<-/> that you are not getting popular

<$D> No it is not a question of uh the popularity One you have to look at the time span Secondly these are people who are now officially committing their salaries for deduction and when it comes to that kind of uh <-_>that kind of<-/> uh decision you don’t really expect this decision We are going to be deducting money from these people’s uh uh pay-packets So at that point really we don't really feel that there’s a problem in terms of the <-/>the speed with which we are picking up So we want everybody to decide his own free will that he's going to be a member and he knows that there are certain conditions which are going on with that particular membership

<$C> Okay I think as you’re from the University of Nairobi which has been paralysed by the strikes since November and there being now members committee members of that association what are you doing to contain that situation

<$D> Very good uh We are appealing to all members of staff to put the needs of the students those poor students who pay six thousand shillings and they come from very poor family backgrounds We are appealing on behalf of the parents we are appealing on behalf of the Kenya Community for members of staff to put the interest of those students first and foremost Let's go back and teach and while we are teaching we can then negotiate about <&/>prep those other issues uh As far as the registration is concerned or the union is concerned it’s not within us It is for the people who are agitating for the registration of the union to convince those people who register the union To register them is not for us But in the meantime shall we go back and teach and think about those students think about those parents the thousands of students their parents and their independence That is the focus now over and above our personal interests

<$A> Uh Doctor Ndetei I mean Professor Ndetei the University of Nairobi since it opened it started opening its various campuses on uh January ten It seems that uh nothing has been going on and now the students have started going home Now we understand that only less than a third now of the cohort that was called in there is at the university now What is your association doing to let the students stay in the campus and also to <-/>to <-/>to ensure that uh something is going on not just to keep them there as farce it's <-/>it’s like being hostages

<$D> Some of us are teaching I’ve just come from teaching and the students wanted me to teach them And there are many students there are many students who want to be taught There are very many members of staff who want to be who want to teach But what is happening We are seeing <-/thuggery> <./>Stud The other time we had uh four professor principals being beaten up for thirty minutes Are those the people we want to deal with So because of <-/thuggery>

<$A> We are going to have one last question uh maybe from uh Mr Muyia

<$B> <./>Ye yes I'm <-/>I’m just want for a conclusion just to say that your association is fairly uh like a bulldog because in the first place if you cannot bring your members of the professional staff the academic staff to teach at this critical moment when the government needs your support most

<$D> We <-/>we <-/>we are asking those people who are applying <-/thuggery> to people who want to teach to give the members of staff the freedom of choice to teach if they want to teach without <-/thuggery> We don't want to see what we saw the other day somebody is being beaten up We don't want to see uh organisations meant to flush people out of lecture theatres We want them to say the choice is yours go and teach if you want to teach but if you don't want to teach uh that is your business We are not going to <./>app <-/>to apply anything else other than verbal persuasion

<$A> Thank you very much I'm sorry we have to come to an end I think uh we’ve run out of time I would have wished to continue Our viewers we have come to the end of our programme tonight I'd like uh to <./>wi uh <-/>to appreciate your being with us and following uh this interesting debate I think uh the time is a little too short but uh we will look for another forum to exploit that I'd like to thank uh our two visiting university dons Dr Duke Orata who is the chairman of the Academic Staff Association of the University of Nairobi and uh Professor David Ndetei who is a committee member I would <./>wan want also to thank our panellist Mr Wachira Kigotho of the Standard I'm Wamayiu Muhia from the Daily Nation And with that our viewers I wish you a good night

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