Forum for Understanding: Science (Discussion about medicine and culture)




НазваниеForum for Understanding: Science (Discussion about medicine and culture)
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<$?> <&/>laughter

<$B> uh yeah that's not that <./>tha <./>tha <-/>that <./>tha <-/>that also the <-/>the <-/>the western type of laissez-faire capitalism is also collapsing but because marxism

<$?> <./>Ma <./>ma

<$B> is collapsing faster this is all we need the new philosophies

<$?> <./>Ma <./>ma

<$B> and Africa is in the best position to help produce this

<$?> Yes Professor Marxism is not collapsing and in fact as a philosophy it's not collapsing it <-/>it

<$B> uh

<$?> it is <-_>it is<-/> a mode of thinking

<$B> yeah

<$?> and it can't collapse and it will remain Marxism Uh what is collapsing perhaps are those who have tried to use it in terms of uh uh technological advancement

<$?> Yeah

<$?> but Marxism remains with its rich philosophy it remains with its in fact inherent body of <-/>of knowledge that can be useful

<$?> Yes

<$?> forever so it can't collapse Uh but the point that perhaps we should focus onto now is my interest on <&/>prep the themes of this conference in terms of bringing up Africa on top of the world if you like And I <-/>I have in mind this conference happening when we have refugees uh uh uh uh all over the place when we have uh good people dying in Sudan and in Ethiopia You see them on the screens you see them in magazines and in newspapers dying because of the <-/>the environmental hazards that are coupled with politics So are we going to sit in Nairobi philosophize and <-/>and exchange of views and not address such grim realities in Africa That's why I'm pushing onto this thematic interest of <-/>of the conference

<$?> the general theme of the conference is <-/interdisciplinitary> and we say the <-_problem><-+problems> of environment are not only physical uh <-_problem><-+problems>

<$?> Yes

<$?> They're also a human problem

<$?> <-/>mhm

<$?> and the refugee problem is an environmental problem

<$?> Yes

<$?> and should be addressed by scholars

<$?> Yes

<$?> and it's not just sitting to philosophize it's sitting maybe it's philosophizing on the practical <-_problem><-+problems>

<$?> Yes

<$?> Yeah

<$?> so I cannot suggest for you here what kind of answers or

<$?> Yeah uh indeed indeed indeed

<$?> but such <-_problem><-+problems>are relevant to the general theme

<$?> So how much have you involved uh your partners in i<-/>n this field because you have you're talking about philosophers who are practical and that would be the direction of the thinking of that day What <-/>what <-/>what involvement have you uh arranged for governments for NGOs and and such like organisations that may be useful in terms of translating some of the <-/>the views into tangible reality

<$B> Oh yes we have a connection with a number of NGOs who are lending us support either in kind or materially We have support for example from Rockefeller <+_a> little support from Foundation We have the support from Codesria

<$?> Yes

<$B> know them uh we are uh uh having <&/>grammar some bit of promise <./>fr of support from UNEP we also have invited their director to give one of the uh to talk We have uh support from uh organisation in Nairobi like Initiative which is African Centre for Science and Technology We have support from Ford Foundation We <-/>we <-/>we <-/>we have support from African Insitute in New York We have support from Kenya National Academy of Science We have some kind of support from University of Nairobi Press and so on <&/>clears his throat

<$?> Now Professor the uh I'll probably uh ask Dr Mbai the general I wouldn't say the general probably the normal view of the man in the street of the African philosopher is of a person dabbling in high theory and mostly at the university uh and with very little to do with our ordinary lives uh or even I mean there is no coordination between those who implement like the leaders for example Do our philosophers actually have both the clout the because you need that to tell our leaders where they go wrong for example Can the philosophers aware our leaders in Africa all over Africa I mean because something must be wrong when a continent is beset by so many problems Are the philosophers in the forefront of pointing out these problems and probably providing solutions or suggesting solutions

<$?> Added to that Mr Chairman if I may put a footnote There was as <-/>as uh I think recently there was a meeting a conference in Nyeri of uh <-/>of <-/>of <-/>of scientific uh researchers And one of the <-/>the complaints was that uh research has has now moved away from the old pedestal of where you research and publish and once you've published you sit back and say yes I'm a researcher and I'm a thinker uh so so that <-/>that links up to what he's saying uh to what extent are we going to do this and <-/>and <-/>and fail to in fact impact

<$?> Yes

<$?> write books and advise our leaders in <./>whate whatever

<$?> Yes

<$?> areas socially politically and otherwise I mean are the philosophers actually taking the lead to advise us on what to do

<$A> What do you mean I mean if you ask whether <-_philosopher><+_philosophers> are taking the lead to advise us philosophers are taking the lead in what is philosophical Yes they're doing that

<$?> What is philosophical

<$A> and <-/>and <-/>and when you talk of advising our leaders uh who are your leaders I mean <-_>I mean<-/> uh I

<$?> Leaders in various fields

<$A> D'you mean <-_>d'you mean<-/>

<$?> I mean you can have scientists for example

<$A> Do you mean only political leaders

<$?> No no no both political leaders uh

<$?> decision maker

<$?> decision maker

<$?> Yes

<$?> Yes yeah yeah

<$?> people who

<$?> I mean do you involve when you when you <-_>when you<-/>

<$?> the <-/>the <-/>the philosophers

<$A> as far as the leaders in their duty have certain problems which they need intellectual answers to They need academic solutions to

<$?> Yes

<$A> and in so far as those problems are known to philosophers and scientists uh the <-/>the philosophers and scientists do discuss this usually

<$?> Among

<$B> at two

<$?> themselves

<$A> among themselves at two level I say

<$?> Yes

<$A> among themselves and get what they think about them At the second level where if the leaders are willing to engage these <-_philosopher><+_philosophers> these <-_scientist><+_scientists> and throw the problem to them they also engage in that and respond to the leader's request

<$?> Now <./>Mis uh Professor I think uh uh as a follow <-_>as a follow<-/> up to that there is always this uh uh conflict of uh possibilities when a philosopher is supposed to be the person operating on rational uh thinking and rational solutions But in certain situations we find public opinion that uh takes uh uh the day that carries the day And I do not know whether you'd agree with me that uh sometimes uh public opinion may not be uh <./>alw may not always be right Well how does a philosopher get uh around that

<$B> Mr Chairman this is a very interesting question and it is interesting because I think that uh philosophy has been regarded with suspicion And the people have thought that philosophy must be uh it it creates trouble

<&/>laughter

<$B> that philosophy uh makes people riot or things like that which is not really what philosophy is all about Now that <-/>that view is as mistaken as the view that philosophy is just an abstract you know kind of subject I think that a good philosopher is not that one who simply thinks and then goes to bed after thinking but a man who not only thinks but also acts You see Having thought and having come to certain conclusion <&/>grammar do you do something about it Now it is one thing of course to give good advice but what people do with that advice is a different thing

<$?> <-/>mhm

<$B> The philosopher will <./>lea will give his <.-/>his opinion sometimes you know expert Just again expert for example the economists will give you advice on how to proceed If you want to go there this is the way to get there but now it's up to you whether you take that advice and do something with it or you just sit on it But the problem is that I think the philosophers very often are not actually listened to

<$> But I would ask a question for example uh both Plato and Aristotle are They not only enunciated a philosophy they also oh and even Marx afterwards Marx and Hegel and so on they not only enunciated philosophies they also uh set out prescriptions on how to implement those things

<$?> <-/>mhm

<$?> say forms of government for example what forms of government are relevant in order to achieve whatever they had enunciated as as uh a political philosophy

<$?> Uh in our African context I haven't seen that I mean we miss that that not only I mean they write about theories and so on and so on but nobody actually tells us okay in Africa probably uh we had societies like this like uh in Meru Njogu Chagga or something like that and uh

<$?> Ah that cannot

<$?> uh that uh operates in this way and that maybe we could widen

<$B> That <-/>that cannot be very true if you say in Africa you haven't seen that I think uh you just don't want to see that <&/>laughter

<$B> I mentioned here some of our philosophers and I hope by philosopher you're not just meaning <&/>grammar somebody in the classroom in the University of Nairobi teaching but we mentioned people like Nyerere Senghor Kenyatta all these nationalists writing books

<$?> <-/>mhm

<$B> What were they doing In their <-_book><+_books> when you read they are giving <-_suggestion><+_suggestions> on what form of development to take what form of government would be suit <&/>grammar Africa and so on

<$?> Yeah

<$?> Professor Oruka

<$B> Yeah what Are they not philosophers

<$?> Professor Oruka

<$B> Yes

<$?> uh uh if I may help uh you are talking about and and you've been falling back to the Nyereres the <-/>the Senghors and the Kwames and then for heaven's sake <./>thi <./>thi this is these are changing times We're talking about a conference in Africa in nineteen ninety one and yet we want to fall back to the repertoire of the Nyeres and all others Who is thinking at the moment

<$A> These people who are thinking at the moment are

<$?> Because we are at <-/>at crossroads now

<$?> I guess what means you are looking for the formalized classroom professional philosopher and what kind of research project they've been doing Yes these are there and in fact wait until July next uh next next next next next next next month

<$?> Uh must be

<$?> and you will see them <&/>laughter

<$A> I know they are not as famous as Nyerere and others but they are there

So we have to wait until July and some of our viewers will not be at that conference to see them I wish you could develop some kind of tangible image of these people

<$A> Yes

<$?> Who they are

<$A> Yes I just mentioned Professor Ondegi who's since become who was a philosopher in this true classroom sense is now in government in his country

<$?> Okay

<$?> and has written a book African Philosophy Myth and Reality which book was honoured in nineteen eighty-four and was given a prize in the USA as being the best book written in the area of African's philosophy and studies that year uh Do you want me to go on

<$?> Doctor <./>Mb Doctor Mboye in fact we're falling back to Doctor Mboye because Doctor Mboye said philosophy has been been conceived to be problematic area

<$A> Yeah

<$?> but you are enlightening people to think aloft

<$A> Yes

<$?> and therefore try to experiment with things that may not quite be easily experimentable Uh but we want as we do our countdown to this conference especially so that it's the first one in Africa At <-/>at least we would put on an image of <-/>of <-/>of <-/>of <-/>of <-/>of some brackets <-/>some some packages of African thinking Uh I don't know perhaps at this moment you <-/>you might just uh uh uh uh mention some of the papers that already are outstanding the ones that have come in I think earlier on you said papers have already uh in fact <-_began<>+_begun> accumulating so some of the papers that have caught your interest in terms of some of these tangible issues that are of the concern of Africa

<$?> Now

<$?> so that as we look down we we we actually look down with with a lot of eagerness

<$A> Yuh it is very difficult to bring up to date now we have up to one hundred and thirty papers that have come in and we are already publishing an advanced volume before the conference come <&/>grammar This volume will come out at the end of this month This is a volume of <-_abstract><+_abstracts> of most of the papers which came in in time and some of the plenary papers

<$?> <-/>mhm

<$A> This we expect to find We also will have a special panel on philosophy in Africa today which uh will uh have as many as uh five key speakers uh there and then a discussion We <-/>we <-/>we <-/>we <-/>we <-/>we shall also have a special cover panel sponsored by Cordesria which will discuss the issues of philosophy and social sciences at the closing decade of this century

<$?> okay

<$A> Uh if if you want me to give you some of the topics I'll have to begin reading the brochure

<$?> No no no not necessarily not necessarily

<$?> Doctor Mboyea maybe let me interrupt uh Doctor Mboye you a your area is uh philosophy of education Uh uh specifically in a continent where uh formal classroom education is not has <-/>has not established itself as a tradition uh what exactly are you concerned with What is it that you are focusing on uh in the philosophy of education

<$A> Well you see when you talk about philosophical education you're really talking about you know the policies for example What uh policies guide in an education system And what is the rationale Would we arrive you know at least some of these policies you see How would you justify them on a uh rational basis you see And then of course you're <-/>you're thinking about the implications of these you know uh policies you know from a philosophical point of view What did we decide for example the eight-four-four system What are the implications that follow if we adopt one as supposed to the other policy you see So philosophy of education really is the general thinking about education and let me say Mr Chairman education is not what you just what you call you know the formal thing in the classroom Education it <&/>grammar goes much further than that We've been really thinking even of uh moral education for example which not just uh the social ethics and thinking in the classroom but how to to develop the child within a uh uh uh a certain context you see

<$?> What

<$?>but you'll not actually be taught in classroom

<$?> It has always been uh uh unfortunately that uh the education that almost everybody talks about is the classroom education and it's good that you enlightened us on uh some of the things that you concern uh yourself with but how effective uh would your operation be in these other aspects of education that we do not ordinarily think about

<$A> Well you see uh uh now the thing is uh unfortunately that other education that we're talking about the formal kind of education is really outside the control of the teacher for example

<$?> <-/>mhm

<$A> or even the philosopher you see Uh there are so many uh parties involved in that that even after the philosopher or the teacher has done his part unless it is followed up by somebody else you know it <-/>it wouldn't make very much you know uh difference it won't be make very much sense But the teacher and the philosopher definitely does make a start expecting that others will take it up from there

<$?> Would the sociologists and social workers be uh the teachers after you've enunciated maybe

<$A> They too have a role to play Everyone of us has a role to play in this you know in education but the importance of the of philosophy is that it gives the direction

<$?> Okay I think uh uh thank you very much uh our viewers for being with us in this exciting uh discussion about philosophy Uh as you <-_>as you<-/> <-_>as you<-/> heard at the beginning uh on July twenty one to twenty five the world conference of philosophy meets here in Nairobi for the first time in this continent uh to discuss issues touching on philosophy man and the environment and we have touched on issues uh that also uh <./>re uh regard how a philosopher uh interacts with the society We've also touched on uh how a philosopher contributes to the political thought uh to the technological thought and many other issues And with that we would like to say uh I would like to thank uh Professor Odera Oruka of the University of Nairobi for coming to discuss with us and Doctor Justus Mboye of Kenyatta University and on the panelists I'd like to thank uh Mr Joseph Makhoka of the University of Nairobi and Mr Michael Mngwala of the Weekly Review And with that good night




S1B024K

<&_><$A> Chairman: Owaka Francis

<$B> Dr J. Oduol (f, Luo, 40, Ph.D)

<$C> Mr Oriare Nyarua



<$A> you know they <-/>they argue that when a woman passes and a man passes there is a distinct difference in the corridor I mean my office is situated but when a woman passes she wants to be noticed so there <-/>there is this woman the woman and her mirror which is trying to suggest Maybe it's not yet been developed but we'd suggest it but you know the women in this feminist movement are just trying to assert in words what has been refused and rejected by society in deeds How do you react to that <./>Be <./>be because you put on flamboyantly and walk on Fridays You know the streets are normally a fashion show especially for women But <-/>but no man cares how he put on I can repeat my dress my coat seven times Nobody cares

<$B> You know what is amazing is that after all this discussion you still seem to be putting the blame on the woman I find this very strange because when you say that the woman you know has her mirror Who has given the woman this value you know that's what I really like to take you back to

<$A> She picked her mirror herself

<$B> No no no she didn't Who even told the man that he could get away with a dirty shirt for one week It's the society and what we are saying is that right now there's a sense in which we might want to start shifting the blame from the woman's shoulder and in fact what I was saying is We don't even want to put the blame on the man's shoulder We want to be in this together and we want to say that as much as we value our customs and our beliefs if we are to recognise changes that have taken place where we are here and now We need to readdress and reconsider some of the things that we have said And I would say that for example I wouldn't myself be worried if a man said that I had my own mirror and I want him to notice me I think this is all right We are not renouncing our femininity Some women I'm a woman I'm happy being about being a woman And if I had a colleague who treated me as if I was a man I think I would to some extent be offended The point is when does my femininity come up and when does my professionalism come up I would expect my colleague to realise that just like I as a woman can be seen from two points of view the woman in me that is the biological female and then the whatever status I have he also has the same and the society tends to try to get the woman to choose between these two Why should I have to choose If I'm a professional woman if I'm in the women's liberation I'm still a woman I should still dress and look nice If the society has said and put a lot of premium on the women's appearance what who is the woman to fight against the society

<$A> Yes there <-/>there I think you have a point

<$C> Well Mister chairman I think that what Doctor Oduol is saying is all right but I think uh we should not look at society in that impersonal sense because when we look at society and the <-/>the values and norms which it uses to <-/>to <-/>to pattern the people's conduct still they're made by human beings And I'm wondering whether the difference in the biological sense between male and male I mean female and male have not implications in the <./>da I mean the <-/>the role <-_>the role<-/> differentiation because I think some of them when you look at the socialisation process it is somehow based on the physiological differences surely I'm wondering whether the <./>na the biological nature of a woman does not in any way make her suitable to perform certain functions in society as well as men

<$B> Would you like to give some examples

<$C> Well I'm wondering for example whether it will be suitable for example for a woman to go hunting and even why some take to boxing Well I think uh I think this

<$?> Australia

<$C> I can't take a woman to box uh uh in the ring and start boxing her as Even me I'll probably be having a punch in the breast which is very sensitive in the way of pressure

<$B> You know what I would say is that you are actually displaying the very very you know biased sexual custom and your beliefs and this is what the feminists are fighting You should give everybody a chance There are women out there who I think would crush you They're body builders they have muscles you know All they need to do is they have to break the societal norms They would defy what is seen as feminine The society has said that to be a woman you're supposed to be you know much more conscious about your beauty your appearance You're supposed to be delicate be a little weak Don't be You don't be fit don't have muscles the society has said that

<$?> but

<$B> But if a woman opts to and we do have women wrestlers We do have women you know weightlifters There are women who even now in Nairobi if we were to maybe call them for an announcement there are women who'd come up The question is why are most of the women not doing this Most women are not doing that because the society does not expect women to do it Brings us back to our very argument Feminism is saying look you society there is male and there is female Then there are activities and roles in this world You have decided some are masculine others are feminine Why have you insisted that they must remain like that There is nothing other than just biological like lactation and pregnancy This is what nobody is going to complain about Motherhood that you cannot complain about but beyond that all these things we are talking about are just patronising When you tell a woman that you most likely will land a blow on her breast she sees your patronising attitude You're just thinking about her breast You didn't have to think about her breast

<$?> <&/>laughter because you're a man you are not going to land it anywhere

<$C> Look what I am saying is look I think it is it is a biological fact that given the biological sex of the woman and even the <-/hormonic> the hormones you know I think the <./>hor the hormones prepare the body for certain particular functions and for example even if you look at your skin and mine surely Doctor Oduol I'm sure you <-/>you can see that mine is rough

<&/>laughter

<$C> and this is not that I took not to care for it It is because my hormone does not

<$A> allow you to

<$C> yeah to be softer skinned This is

<$B> You know beyond saying I would say myself that as far as the limitations would be in regard to pregnancy and <./>lac lactation for example that you're not going to do anything about But all these things you are talking about you can go and play a ladygame

<$C> It won't work <&/>laughter and speaking at the same time What happens there is Don't you I think there is the biological structure of the sexes I think prepare them for particular roles

<$A> Okay we'll leave that we can't solve it It's so tough <&/>speaking at the same time

But let us talk about this uh It's a social issue a question of segregation You know it has been argued that feminism is a <-/segregative> movement you know In America recently I'm having in mind this particular case where women got married to <-/>to <-/>to other women to avoid male dominance for example I think you are aware of it You know they <-/>they argue that you see I have to get married to <-/>to my fellow woman who we are equal and I mean we shall play complementary roles in the in our house in our home you know they call it home but I call it home in quote Now what would you say about this that it is a <-/segregative> movement It is only caring about uh uh female issues female affairs and if to <-/>to some extent and uh very patronising extent children affairs

<$B> I would say that uh <&/>clearing her throat it is a movement that is looking at those who are being so far mistreated by society who in their perception feel that they are the underdogs and I would compare this to maybe racial liberation you know when you think of the Americans when the Blacks were fighting against the Whites It's usually the ideological power structure that is presented by society's values that makes those who are subordinate or who feel that they are subordinated to fight back and I was going to say that with regard to this issue of women marrying other women I'm aware that that is happening for many women and this takes us back to the question which I pointed out at the beginning that the general aim or goal of all feminists is to change the angle of perception so that women are not just looked down upon because of their biological distinction because women don't think this is fair Society has demonstrated that it is not fair The manner in which they do it vary There are those women who say now that there is feminism I can be a woman and proud of it I can be a mother and I can also be a professional and I can be proud because nobody is going to say you are just a mere woman you can't do this On the other hand there are women who have said now I don't want to be a woman because being a woman is in terms of the society humiliating exactly what you were saying before a woman is a woman These other women are saying whatever I do even if I should I mean I weight lift even if I become a prime minister even if I become what this is what people still say a woman is a woman so this one say now I don't have to be a woman anymore I need never be a mother They say that I need never be somebody's wife I am going to be something less humiliating because they are saying being women has been humiliating and I think that we people in the society are responsible for this And what we need to do is to understand what is involved and maybe create an atmosphere where this woman doesn't have to feel humiliated by being a woman

<$A> Then you bring me to this <-/>this question Can feminism be <-/>be compatible with motherhood and <-/>and to what extent and uh uh <-_>and to what extent<-/> <./>ha <./>ha have the married women married mothers you know it's funny married mothers

<$C> Lesbianism is it lesbianism <&/>speaking at the same time

<$A> No I <-/>I just got I want to use the married mothers only in the real sense Yeah

<$C> Okay married mothers in that sense

<$A> yeah

<$B> And not those who are not single mothers

<$A> those who are not single mothers yeah <&/>laughter To what extent have they contributed to this low status of women that uh you know feminism is fighting to this negative image that feminism is fighting to what extent is this housewife uh what role has she played in this negativity of the feminist

<$B> Okay what I would say is that if we look at feminism and see it as having different faces you know it could be the face of a woman who wants to present herself as a woman and who says I am a woman and I'm asking for respect and I'm proud of being a woman Then you can look at it with the other face The feminist face that says being a woman is humiliating I am glad that feminism is around because the concept woman was my slave name and was used to mitigate against me and I'm going to go all out to make sure that I free myself from it

These two are extremes and on the one hand you have those who would do everything that women have been doing in society and who would want just to be recognised or acknowledged This is compatible with motherhood There are very many women who are mothers and who are aware that it is necessary for the society and their husbands for that matter to respect this role of motherhood because if you stop to think about it isn't motherhood just as important or if not more important than fatherhood Why is it that when a woman is a mother and she is a housewife then it is seen as the just Remember what I said earlier the just-and-only-phenomenon this is what the women are fighting because you find women themselves saying at a workshop they've come to introduce themselves They say I'm just a housewife and you want to know what's wrong with being a housewife and yet the woman who is a lecturer is looked at by the society like you know you are in the wrong place So what I'm saying is my response is feminism <-/>feminism is very much compatible with motherhood depending on what model of feminism you are practising If you are the woman who wants to say thank God that feminism has now undertaken to teach the society to show the society that where they were unfair and were punishing a woman for no reason they will be happy to be a mother If on the other hand you have chosen to react to this branding you know like you are a label a woman and you see the fact that if you are a woman you mustn't study you get married you must have children then you will of course go and look for another woman to marry That would be my response

<$C> I think Mr Chairman from the discussion it'll appear that feminism is somehow directed to an image created by some few people who don't want to appreciate the <-/>the difference the difference in the responsibility and statuses Because what I'm trying to say when there are men who would appreciate a woman as a woman in the in the in the human sense you see as a human being but simply biologically different you know different from man So there is no negative image fixed on the woman There are men who would look at certain women in the negative sense So I think if feminism is fighting this negative image Then it appears it is only fighting the <-/>the few men who have a negative conception of women

<$A> But who are very very influential in society for that matter because if <-/>if they are few how can they create the <-/>the how can they permeate the idea that has permeated society

<$C> Mr Chairman I would think look the society has been changing and I think whatever is the respect or honour that have been attributed to this status statuses have been due to the importance of the roles played which means and the value that was imposed by society you see and there are so many women now who are certainly comfortable in their hides even without any men in their lives

<$B> Are you sure

<$C> Well I'm one of

<$A> very comfortable

<$B> You are one of the reasons why maybe you don't get too many women coming in to talk on this is because it is the greatest conflict The very women who might be talking about the role models the women who has so <-/>so to speak in a high status they're the ones with the greatest amount of problems Why Because they have worked hard to get there They have in fact three quarters of the time have had to beat men because most of the time you have to be much better than a man for you to be given the same status And yet when they get there they find that this was all in vain because the society looks still at them and sees the woman You know there are cases we <-/>we were told at <-/>at one workshop in uh in Europe where a male a female doctor walks into the ward with a <-/>a clerk you know who is supposed to help with mail and the patient thinks that's the doctor because the society even the developed society still feels that when a woman and a man walks in <-/>in spite of that label here Doctor so and so the fact that they see me in this skirt right they decide immediately What I was going to say is you can't say that the women who are up there are free They are the ones with the greatest amount of conflict

<$C> what I'm saying is

<&/>at the same time

<$A> they were not subjected to this humiliating image

<$B> Where are they living where are they living they're living here and the society still put them in the same structure

$A Okay what are

<$C> Okay Doctor Oduol I want to pursue this issue about married women and especially mothers it <-/>it is my humble submission that actually married mothers and and employment are incompatible It is optional after all the man will bring the food So why why should you work I mean

<$B> <-/>Mhm

<$C> isn't it isn't it aren't you comfortable aren't you eating isn't it

<$A> as a housewife depending on a man

<$C> yeah that's the thing

<$B> But doesn't that depend on what you would have liked to do I think that to be a housewife I could for example now resign from being at university and be a housewife

<$A> as a career

<$B> I can yeah as a career But that would be if that is what I would like to do because look what we are saying is this In talking about motherhood does this necessarily mean that the mother must be there twenty-four hours for this child and in talking about roles in society is there somewhere because when you say housewife I'm sure you are including not just the child rearing responsibilities but cooking and washing and all that

<$A> etcetera

<$B> Isn't there somewhere where we have a rule that a man can never do this Don't we have men doing this kind of work So what feminism is saying why can't I if I choose to be a career woman enjoy my career and share the responsibilities home with my husband Why can't a man cook He is cooking as a bachelor anyway <$A> yeah

<$B> and if I choose to right now I could leave my job at the university I can be housewife and proud of it I should be proud of it

<$A> Then Doctor Oduol I <-/>I have a very burning question that uh most feminists equate class dominance with sex and power you know that the man the man who is a male is therefore the powerful and it is a view that let us fight this power let us therefore fight it through sexism why and maybe what is your what would be a scholarly reaction

<$B> How can it not be related to power I mean it depends on what theory we are putting forward here because we are saying that we are observing certain patterns of behaviour in society and then we are coming up with a theory that it's an attempt to explain what we observe in society We observe phenomena we observe patterns of interaction value judgements We observe women who have worked hard and become professors become prime ministers and they are still being judged down as if they never accomplished anything and now we find that a man who can even be a drunkard an

<$A> <-/>Mhm

<$B> alcoholic in most African societies

<$A> it's a virtue

<$B> you can find yes it's a virtue everybody celebrates a boy is born

How can we not relate to power how can we not

<$A> Thank you very much Doctor Oduol Uh we were discussing feminism We have really seen the various dimensions of feminism Actually it is a great topic and no-one can claim to exhaust it In the studio we had Doctor Oduol Doctor Oduol is a lecturer at the University of Nairobi Department of Linguistics and African Studies and Mr Oriare Nyarua Thank you very much On behalf of the programme producer George Okode My name is Owaka Francis




S1B025K

<&_><$A> Pedy (journalist)

<$D> Okumba Miruka

University students: Tony Mwangi, Titi Wainau



<$A> just taking drugs you yourself how <-/>how do you feel when you just use your money to buy a drug just because you want to feel good or just because

<&/>all talking at the same time

<$?> give me a beer

<$A> even a beer

<$?> let's have a beer

<$?> because you're not going to actually sell

<$?> Take this one

<$?> even in the bar

<$?> even in the street exactly

<$A> From uh from a different point of view uh Here we're talking about just the drug But there are also those people who prepare that drug For example if I'm thinking of chang'aa Kenyan locally brewed beer You see chang’aa is uh is actually an illegal you know

<$?> brew

<$A> brew in the country So the fact that people are still engaged in uh in doing it means that you know a lot of our resources human resources are not being diverted to useful economic activities

<$?> <-/>mhm

<$A> you know they are used in <-/>in chang’aa brewing and in chang’aa brewing you have the raw materials you know the maize or the or the millet So again they are you know diverting these resources to this you know illicit brew So this <-/>this in itself is an economic question

<$?> just a minute

<$A> Even though even uh just <-/>just uh a moment There is also the question of uh you know the youth We should not only <./>thi that uh maybe that person who has got a job is the only one who is economically productive Because even the children probably they are very <./>eco economically productive at the domestic

<$?> <-/>uhu

<$A> uh subsistence level Because these are the people who work to the farms to wheat to harvest to they really

<$?> They even look after livestock

<$A> yah look after livestock So if <-/>if your children you know are users of drugs this means you know they are not going to be helpful to you uh in that sense so there'll be an economic uh uh what

<$?> retardation

<$A> retardation yeah

<$B> What I think is also this <-/>this question of economic is quite a pressing one because I don't know how to put this because when KBL prepares beer they know very well that it's a drug of course And they are using raw material They employed so many people to work there There are farmers who are producing I don't know what stabilizer/fertilizer they are producing Now do you expect that when we say these things are drugs let’s ban it now Just a minute just a minute

<$A> Just a moment! We had agreed earlier that drugs can be put to good use It's when you do not use them the way they're intended to be used

<&/>talk at same time

<$?>Let's say we cannot manufacture medicine because they're not

<$?> we agreed from what L told us last time

<$A> Okay let's not go back to that

<$C> people are allowed to take this thing as a relaxation The moment you take it more than that limit today then definitely you are

<$B> Look my issue was not the my issue was not the consumption my issue was

<$A> the economical

<$B> the economical aspect because even the chang’aa brewer who is brewing that chang’aa he is doing it for a purpose somehow to make you know to bring up some kids up You know somebody else somewhere who is selling bhang he is doing it for a specific purpose But then how do we balance the two You see

Yeah

<$A> It's like saying this, It's like this one saying this If I can use heroin, you're telling me if I can use heroin or cocaine or bhang and pay for it the person who is getting that money is benefiting So the country should justify it because there is some economic activity going on

<&/>all talking together

<$A> is benefiting from that

<$B> No, no, it's not that I'm saying some of the things that are used to making these drugs somehow, if somebody decided they'll produce this to make drug, somebody somewhere is going to suffer Even the whole country might suffer But what I was asking is how we ourselves like the way we are the four of us five of us How we can balance between the two The economic aspect

<$C> No No The problem is really uh

<$B> The thing is to whom this drug is going to and the use it is going to be put into So if Kenya Breweries uh manufactures ten crates of beer a day and this beer is tended into one person one person takes the whole thing at a go then to me that's an abuse

<$?> It's an abuse

<$?> No no let me say something

<$?> Just a minute

<$?> Okumba you

<$B> Yeah The point is uh the Breweries has benefited in getting the money but somebody else had spent so much money for something that is not economically beneficial to them

<$A> Let's not go too much into aspects of brewing and why it should be brewed Let's look at what is happening What effects are these drugs having on the youth Especially when we consider that it's a big big problem It's getting lethal It's worse It's bad
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