Forum for Understanding: Science (Discussion about medicine and culture)




НазваниеForum for Understanding: Science (Discussion about medicine and culture)
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<&/>laughter

<$A> Now the same professors or lecturers have a lot of family problems because of money spent on drinking Now where do you actually have social models in our country That is the problem

<$?> What about politicians are they models to other people

<&/>laughter

<$A> Let's put this way we are talking about corruption there's no secret and so forth and that's why I said what I would suggest is we should go back to the basics We want now to begin respecting people on the basis of how they made their money not how much money they have

<$C> Going back to the family set-up uh if I can take you back to that surely not everybody takes drugs or not everybody drinks but you still find uh strained relations in almost every social relationship My poser to you is Would you rather these people stayed together with uh such strained relations or they stay apart

<$A> That's a big question In other words Is it better to <-/>to divorce or to separate if you're not getting along or is it better to stay there

<$C> Yeah

<$A> under stress

<$C> Yeah because I don't see why we should be too close physically yet too far emotionally

<$A> In other words you don't see the use of living in psychological divorce

<$C> No

<&/>laughter

<$A> uh you know when I got to the United States the first man I met was a minister who was divorcing Church minister He was called Victor I had visited him he had invited me and he told me uh Mister Kabithe at that time I was just a student I am divorcing my wife and I are divorcing I told him do you know the worst thing you can do is to divorce He asked me why It is bad for children and so forth He told me maybe the best thing I can do for my children is to give them a chance to see their mother happy or me happy one day But if they continue to see us angry at each other I'm not even developing their personality properly I feel guilty I feel irresponsible and I think they are better off without me or maybe without mother so that they can see a happy parent even if it is one parent I think that answers your question Now today as a <./>psychol when I look back I feel that man was right Now of course you remember this We are called a developing country Before we are called developing country we are called we were called what underdeveloped country do you remember

<$C> Yeah

<$A> They changed it Most of us think

<&/>laughter

<$D> Then they changed it to Third World okay to make us feel better

<$A> To make us feel better even Now let's analyse this What is it they refer to this development

Most of us may be thinking they are talking to <./>inifastruc infrastructure technological and economic and all that No Take it from me They are referring to mental <-/>mental development

<$?> <-/>mhm

<$A> Okay So we were seen as mentally underdeveloped now we are seen as mentally developing At least we have a potential

<&/>laughter

<$A> a potential for developing Let me finish Now my thinking is this Think of this If each of us were made a millionaire over night given a mansion and a Mercedes we still will act with our mental underdevelopment because we shall kill each other on the road with those Mercedes

<$?> <-/>mhm

<$A> if roads are very good we even speed faster So you see actually there's a truth that we are not mentally developed because we don't actually sit down and reason and analyse our objectives and goals properly Now this if of course a foreigner called us that we'll say he has insulted us but I told young people in your editorial uh a creative person okay a sign of creativity is ability to see own stupidity

<$?> <-/>mhm

<$A> and even be able to laugh at it I don't know how many Africans are creative to that extent

<$B> Doctor Kabithe uh according to what or let me say what I think is that you <./>ad <./>an you aren't actually advocating us going to changing that drastically as you would really put it We change because we think we are aping somebody or we are trying to live after what other person live Now according to you where is the problem Is it with us who are trying to live or the misconception that this is how best we can live Is it because of this that there is <./>str stress or is it because we really do not know what we want

<$A> It's because we don't know what we want That is because we don't have models and it's because we have never developed a philosophy like Europeans They developed the philosophy a sense of values There were philosophers <-/>mhm remember

<&/>end of recording




S1B033K

<&_> Divorce

<$A> Chairman

<$B> Mrs Rose Kakwagi

<$C> Father James Michael Kinuthia

<$D> Mr Chege Kiruli

<$E> Professor Gatere, m, 58, Kimeru Embu, d



<$A> of your programme Hotline
and in today's edition of the programme we look at the subject of divorce Marriage to most people that day of marriage is usually their happiest day and unfortunately divorce might be the case and help us in that discussion on my immediate left is Mrs Rose Kakwagi

<$B> Hello viewers good evening

<$A> Mrs Kakwagi is a counsellor On my right we have Father James Michael Kinuthia

<$C> Good evening viewers

<$A> Father Kinuthia is from the Holy Family Cathedral On the extreme right is Mr Chege Kiruli

<$D> Hello viewers

<$A> He is a lawyer by profession and he'll give us the professional perspective or point of view and lastly but not least as always in the programme is Professor Gatere who needs no introduction

<$E> Good evening viewers Now as usual on our programme we have been looking at social typical social issues that uh have a capacity to generate stress in all of us Tonight we are going to address the issue of divorce an extremely important issue in our current uh society in Kenya and we are more than it's usual because we want to hear a wider range of views on this very important topic divorce

<$A> And uh if I may take the liberty of asking our learned friends we're all here of learned friends so that the bonus is really only on the extreme right and fortunately not ladies and then gentlemen to give us the definition from the legal point of view What is divorce

<$E> Divorce in legal terms is the judicial process that terminates marriage One here has to presuppose that there is a legal marriage before any judicial process is put into motion to terminate or nullify such marriage There are various grounds that one can use to put the judicial process into motion The main grounds are adultery cruelty and desertion Those are the main ones The petitioner that is the person or the party going to court has to prove those grounds to the satisfaction of the court I do not normally want to go into details on these grounds

<$A> Maybe the ball is really on anyone's court If we look at adultery from your perspective what might be the definition of adultery that could contribute

<$B> Thank you Mr Chairman I think uh if there is anything that is painful in any marriage it's unfaithfulness Uh to the viewers I 'm sure they have found a lot of homes breaking and not from because of the poverty there is in their home but because of the unfaithfulness and <-/>and all <-_what><+_that> I can say about it is that uh although it is clear to those who are not Christians and even the hiding Christians people can sit and talk about it and solve it and uh make a marriage live continue

<$A> Do you have anything to add to this

<$C> Well I could say this that hum when you talk of not only of grounds of adultery but even others maybe it's also very well to look at this question from another point of view Now we have had a word to divorces from the legal point of view but as well there is the question of there are some marriages which can be made invalid that is they were never really marriages Maybe we don't talk much of that but if it's there there's a real <-/>real problem in which case we are not talking of divorce but <-_annullification><+_annulment> of a marriage for example when you have such problems like impotence insanity Maybe there is somebody under-age a child who is being married or blood relationships which of course will affect this marriage such that a marriage cannot take place Now those are marriages which we do not say really they are being divorced although in active uh although actually they are being divorced but we say that they are being nullified because they were never there When it comes now to something like adultery it's when now the church says and talks of separation Separation and there are two kinds of separations we talk of in the Church Separation where you don't dissolve the bond of marriage in which case you give time time for repentance time to reconcile time to rethink again because the bond of marriage is not actually being rent asunder cut uh but rather we are talking of the possibility of coming back Even when we talk in terms of adultery and so on you have to think also in terms of religious welfare and God forgives and that we should also forgive I'm not saying that you know adultery therefore is to be accepted or other crimes and sins That's not what I'm saying but I'm saying to give the possibility of understanding the possibility of reconciliation forgiveness So the other part then is that a separation now where the bond of marriage is totally dissolved and this is where now we are talking of <-_annullification><+_annulment> of marriages due to certain things objections which make it that the marriage was never really there at the beginning I hope maybe I've touched on what you're asking especially about

<$A> Now Dr Gatere on the still looking on the grounds of divorce our learned friends mentioned cruelty but to me as a layman I can decide to be happy but to you that definition is <-/>is being cruel I may like loud music but to your ears I'm being cruel If we are in marriage with somebody can that be used as maybe one of the grounds or what is really cruelty

<$E> Cruelty is extremely difficult to define objectively It is a very subjective matter and it is the sufferer who knows where the shoe uh it is the shoe wearer who knows where it pinches Many people uh consider that say physical cruelty such as physical beating uh is <-/>is isn't so terrible We happen to know people who enjoy it Now what would you say in a situation like <-/>like that There are people who culturally tend to speak very rudely and their interaction inter-personal interaction uh takes the form of the type of form that you'll be shocked according to your culture uh the way they in fact that is that is how they communicate so that uh any an observer from outside would think that this is terrible and this is very very cruel but to them it is not coming over like that so I think cruelty is uh something that has to be seen first and foremost from the point of view of the sufferer That's very important uh Secondly uh from considering the circumstances surrounding what is being perceived as cruelty The perception of the person is very important the <-/>the real person and that is what really must be tested and it may require more in uh proving cruelty than just uh objective stated uh positions It may require for example psychological elucidation of the position for the person may be perceiving things totally different from what most people perceive it and uh they therefore exaggerate them or put them in terms that are going to be very difficult but I agree that when all is said and done cruelty clearly must be considered as a proper uh ground for separation because some people are just too cruel to their spouses

<$A> Now going back to Mr Kiruli Desertion is one other strong ground that you gave Even though interesting enough you uh initially just to as uh you know getting back to what you mentioned before you talked of strong grounds but before you touch on how easy or how it isn't easy to get divorce just looking at the other point that you had mentioned of desertion Is it necessarily physical desertion or can I desert you yet I'm physically present What exactly do you mean

<$D> Desertion can be physical and it can also be uh mental You can live together in one house and not be together In that I mean where you have two people staying in one house and yet one lives as if he's alone or the wife lives as if she's alone That means that there is no interaction between these two people There could be constructive desertion that occurs when you appear as if you're staying together but indeed you are not or the desertion can also be physical whereby you move out of the house and you stay away from the home for a year or more What I should emphasise here is that uh it's not as easy as that when you come to court You have to prove that uh the other spouse has deserted you That means that the if the spouse as the man or husband has failed absolutely to provide uh as a normal husband would provide for the wife That is desertion When we come to the adultery or cruelty or agree with the father here that the in-law we have divorces that have to be proved from the point of view that there was a legal marriage from the beginning We have instances where there was no marriage from the beginning That is to say where the legal requirements were not fulfilled during the ceremony of marriage For example if you went to church at night uh you closed your doors to the church and you conducted a marriage That marriage is not legal marriage It's is <-/annullity> from the beginning Or whereby you have two persons who are too close in terms of the <-/>the degree of uh consanguinity where a brother marries a sister or a father marries a daughter That marriage is <-/annullitive> from the beginning or where you have uh an underaged getting married without a consent of the father That marriage is <-/annullitive> from the beginning what you call void <*/agnitia> in law The cruelty cannot be defined It could be mental and it could be physical Mental cannot also be defined It ranges from queer habits that the other spouse cannot tolerate to mental cruelty in terms of actions done by the other party to annoy to the extent that the other person cannot tolerate that annoyance It could also be physical where somebody comes in and beats the other frequently to the extent that uh that person cannot live with the other When it comes to the actual cases in court proof is required and the degree of proof is high The court will not allow a divorce just because one party wants a divorce The legal practitioner also before taking action we have to be uh to be satisfied that there are good grounds to move to court otherwise you'll not proceed to file the petition simply because the implications on divorce are great The area of uh children is something that one has to take into account when one is contemplating filing a divorce There are various issues that are required before this is done Mr Chairman I don't know whether you want to be <./>spe specific here

<$A> No that's quite fine

<$B> I just want to say excuse me something small to what our learned friend has said about the cruelty both the physical and mental I think the <-/>the result of uh of uh one being cruel to one another is because there is no dialogue in that place mostly commonly found But uh if a man comes home and starts beating a wife surely he has not just started beating her there just total beating her there it was a plan and that might have been in the pipeline for quite a while and the only way I feel to solve some cruelty in forms or in marriages is communication If two people are staying together and most of the times they are nil by mouth for sure they are not talking to one another there are bound to be some <-/confliction> of a kind And so to solve them to solve the cruelty to solve the beating to solve that silence in the home I think it's good to talk and come to the conclusion or agree to disagree if the need be but at least there should be a dialogue

<$A> I would agree with you uh Normally that's what the uh legal <./>practition does uh practitioner does

He has first of all to find out whether there has been any attempt to reconcile the two uh spouses uh If that has not been done the legal practitioner will try to find out where there are avenues to have the parties reconciled before taking any action

<$A> Now Father from now
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